Rid. You shall haue tyme inough. Any daye here after will serue to dispute on.

VVest. Fall to reasonyng. You shal haue som other day for this matter.

Ryd. I haue no more to say concerninge my explication. If you will geue me leaue and lette me alone, I will but speake a woorde or twoo, for my confirmation.

VVest. Goe to, say on.

THere ought to be no doctrine establyshed in the churche of God, whiche dissenteth from the word of God, from the rule of faith, & draweth with it many absurdities, that cannot be auoided:

But this doctrine of the first propositi? is such.

Ergo it ought not to be established and mainteined in the churche of God. The maior or firste part of my argument is playne, and the minor or second part is proued thus:

This doctrine mainteineth a reall, corporall & carnall presence of Christes flesh, assumed and taken of the worde, to be in the sacrament of the Lordes supper, aud that not by vertue & grace onely, but also by the whole essence and subst?ce of the body and fleshe of Christe:

But suche presence disagreeth from Goddes woorde, from the rule of faith, and cannot but drawe with it many absurdities:

Ergo the seconde parte is trew.

The fyrst part of this argument is manifeste, & the seconde may yet further be confirmed thus.

VVest. Thus you consume time, which might be better bestowed on other matters. Mayster Opponent, I praye you to your argumentes.

Smith. I wyll here reason with you vppon transubstantiation, whiche you say is contrary to the rule and Analogy of fayth, the contrarye whereof I proue by the scriptures, and the doctours. But before I enter argumentation with you, I demaund first whether in the sixt chapter of Iohn, there be any mention made of the sacrament, or of the reall presence of Christe in the Eucharist.

Ryd. It is against reason that I shoulde bee impeched to prosecute that whiche I haue to speake in this assembly, beyng not so long, but that it may be comprehended in few woordes.

West. Let hym read on.

First of all, this presence is contrary to many places of the holy scripture

Secondly, it varieth from the articles of the faith.

Thirdly, it destroyeth and taketh awaye the institution of the Lordes supper.

Fourthly it maketh precious thinges common to prophane and vngodly persones: for it casteth that whiche is holye, vnto dogges, and pearles vnto swyne.

Fifthly, it forceth menne to maintaine many monstruous miracles withoute necessitye and autoritie of Goddes woorde.

Sixtlye, it geueth occasion to the Heretikes whiche erred concerning the twoo natures in Christ, to defende theyr heresies thereby.

Seuenthly, it falsifieth the sayings of the godly Fathers, it falsifyeth also the Catholike faith of the churche, whiche the Apostles taught, the Martirs confirmed, and the faithful (as one of the fathers saith) doe retain and kepe vntil this daye. wherefore the seconde part of mine argument is true.

Marginalia1 THis carnal presence is contrary to the word of God, as appeareth, Iohn. 16. I tel you the truthe, it is profitable for you that I goe away. for if I goe not awaye, the comforter shall not come vnto you. Acts. 3. Whom the heau?s must receiue, vntyll the time of restoring of al thinges whiche god hath spoken. Mat. 9 The chyldren of the bridegroome cannot mourne so long as the bridegrome is with them: But nowe is the tyme of mournyng. Iohn. 16. but I will see you againe, and your heartes shall reioyce Io. 14. I will come againe and take you to my self. Math. 24. If they shall saye vnto you, beholde, here is Christ, or there is Christ, beleue th? not: for wheresoeuer the dead carkas is, thether the Eagles wil resort.

Marginalia2It varieth from the articles of the fayth: he ascended into heauen, and sitteth on the ryghte hande of god the father, from whence, (and not from any other place, saith saint Augustine,) he shall come to iudge bothe the quicke and the dead.

Marginalia3It destroyeth and taketh away the instituti? of the Lordes supper, which was commaunded onely to be vsed and continued vntil the Lorde himselfe shoulde come If therefore he be nowe really present in the body of his flesh: th? must the supper cease: For a remembrance is not of a thyng present, but of a thyng paste and absent. And there is a difference betwene remembrance and pres?ce, and (as one of the fathers sayth) a fygure is in vayne where the thynge figured is present.

Marginalia4It maketh precious thinges common to prophane and vngodly persons, and constrayneth men to confesse many absurdities. For it affyrmeth that whoremongers, and murtherers, yea and (as some of them holde opinion) that the wicked & faithlesse, myse, rats also, & dogs may receiue the very reall, and corporall body of the Lorde, wherein the fulnesse of the spirit of light and grace dwelleth: contrarye to the manyfeste woordes of Christ in sixe places, and sentences of the sixt chapter of saint Iohn. It confyrmeth also and mainteineth that beastly kinde of crueltie of the MarginaliaAnthropophagies are a kynde of brutyshe people that feede of m?s flesh.Anthropophagies, that is, the deuouring of mannes fleshe: for it is a more cruell thing to deuoure a quicke man then to slea hym.

Pye Dothe the tyme require that you shuld speake blasphemyes? lay your blasphemies asyde I say.  

Commentary     Close

Foxe corrected what was an excessively verbose translation made in the 1563 edition (1563, p. 959) of Ridley's exchange with Pye and Weston (see 1570, pp. 1608-09; 1576, p. 1372; 1583, p. 1443).

Ryd. I had litle thought to haue had such reprochefull wordes at your handes

VVest. All is husht and at quiet. Betake you to the argumentes maister Doctor.

Ryd. I haue but lytle to say nowe

VVest you vtter blasphemies with a moste impudent face. Get you to the arguments. Fall to it I say.

Marginalia5It forceth m? to mayntein many monstruous miracles, without al necessitie and authority of Gods woorde. For at the comming of this presence of the body and fleshe of Christ, they thrust away the substaunce of bread, and affyrme that the accidentes remayne without anye subiecte. And in the stede thereof, they place Christes body withoute his qualities, and true maner of a body. And if the sacrament bee reserued so long vntyll it mouldeth, and wormes brede thereof, some say that the substance of bread miraculous-MarginaliaAll the rest that foloweth was not red, because the Prolocutoure made poste haste vnto the argumentes.