1563 Edition | Book 5 | Page 997 
I aunswered: MarginaliaD. Ridley replyeth agaynst Fecknam.as for the multitude of affirmations in scripture, and where is one affirmatiō all is one, concerning the truth of the matter, for that any one of the Euāgelists spake inspired by the holy ghost, was as true as þt which is spoken of thē al.MarginaliaTruth in scripture goeth not by nomber of affirmation where one sufficient. It is true þt Iohn saieth of Christ. Ego sum ostium ouium: as if all had said it, for it is not in scripture as in witnes of men: where the nomber is credited more then one, because it is vncertain of whose spirite he doth speake. And where maister Fecknā spake of so many, affirmīg without any negatiō &c. Syr said I al they do affirme the thing which they ment. MarginaliaWordes in scripture must be taken with their meaning.now if ye take their wordes & leaue their meaning, thē do they not affirme what ye take but what they mēt:
CloseA few distortions occurred in the printing of the dialogue from edition to edition. In 1563 (p 929), a passage reads 'then they do not affirme what ye take but what they ment' (my emphasis). In 1570 (p 1589), the word 'not' was omitted and this omission was repeated in subsequent editions (1576, p. 1356; 1583, p. 1427).
[Back to Top]Syr said I, euen the next sentence that followeth: videlicet. MarginaliaHoc est corpus meum expoūded.Hoc facite in meam cōmemorationem. And also by what reason, ye say the bread is turned into Christes carnall body: I may say, that it is turned into his misticall body, MarginaliaReasons why theise wordes ought to be taken not literally.for as that saieth of it, Hoc est corpus quod pro vobis tradetur, so Paule whiche spake by Christes spirite, Vnus panis et vnum corpus multi sumus omnes qui de vno pane participamus. Here he calleth one bread, one lofe sayde maister secretary: yea said I, one lofe one bread all is one with me: but what saye ye, quod M. Secretary, of the vniuersalitie, antiquitie, and vnitie, that maister Fecknam did speake of?
[Back to Top]I ensure you said I, I thinke them matters weightie and to be considered wel. Marginaliavnitie with veritie to be alowed.As for vnitie the truth is, before God, I do beleue it and embrace it, so it be with veritie, and ioyned to our head Christe, and such one as Paule speaketh sayēg: Vna fides, vnus deus, vnū baptisma, & for MarginaliaAntiquite.antiquitie I am also perswaded to be true that Iren. sayeth: Quod primum verū. In oure religion Christes faith was first truly taught by Christ him selfe, by his Apostles & by many good men, that from the beginning did succede next vnto them: and for this cōtrouersie of the sacrament I am perswaded, that those old writers which wrote before the cōtrouersie & the vsurping of the sea of Rome, doth all agree, if they be well vnderstanded in this truth.
[Back to Top]I am glad to heare, said maister Secretary,
that ye do so wel esteme þe doctors of þe church.
MarginaliaVniuersalytie hath a double vnderstāding.Nowe as for vniuersalitie, it may haue two meaninges: one to vnderstande that to be vniuersall whiche from the beginning in al ages hath bene allowed: another, to vnderstand vniuersalitie, the multitude of our age or of anye other singuler age.
No no, sayeth maister Secretary, these thre doo alwayes agree: and where there is one, there is al the reste: and here he and I changed many wordes. And finally to be shorte in this matter, we did not agree.
There was none, quod maister Fecknam, before Berengarius, Wyclief, and Hus, and nowe in oure daies Carolostadius, and Oecolampadius. And Carolostadius sayeth, Christe pointeth his owne bodie, and not the sacramēt and sayd it: Hoc est corpus meum, and Melanchtō writeth to one Micronius, MarginaliaMelanton ad Myconum.(Miconius sayd I) and sayth, Nullam satis grauem rationē inuenire possum, propter quam a fide maiorū in hac materia dissentiam, or like wordes.
[Back to Top]Thus when he had spoken at lengthe with many other wordes mo. Syr said I, it is certē, that other before these haue wrytten of this matter, not by the waye onely and obiter, as doth for the moste all the olde wryters, but euen ex professo, as their whole booke intreateth of it alone, as Bertram.
Close'Bertram' is Ratramnus of Corbie, a ninth-century theologian known, among other works, for his De Corpore et sanguine Domini, which emphasised the figurative nature of the elements of the Sacrament (1563, p. 929; 1570, p. 1590; 1576, p. 1357; 1583, p. 1427).
MarginaliaBertram Bertram, sayd Secretary, what man was he, and when was he,
CloseIn the first two editions, Bourne asks Ridley about Bertram: 'What man was he, and when was he?' (1563, p. 929; 1570, p. 1590). In the edition of 1576, this was mistakenly changed to 'What man was he and whom was he' (p. 1357); this was repeated in the next edition (1583, p. 1427).
Trithemius was but of late time: but he speaketh quod I, of them that were of antiquitie. Here after muche talke of Bertram, What autors haue ye quod maister Secretary, to make of the sacrament a figure?
Sir quod I, ye know, I thinke, that MarginaliaTertullianus.Tertullian in plaine wordes speaketh thus, Hoc est corpus, id est figura corporis mei. And MarginaliaGelasius.Gelasius saieth plainly that Substantia panis manet, and MarginaliaOrigen.Origen sayeth lykewyse, Quod sanctificatur secundum materiam, ingreditur stomachum et vadit in secessum.
CloseThe English translations of passages from patristic fathers and from the Vulgate, which appear throughout this dialogue, were introduced in the 1570 edition.