MarginaliaAn. 1554. March.controuersie and the vsurpyng of the Sea of Rome, do all agree, if they be well vnderstanded in this truth.

I am glad to heare, sayd Maister Secretary, that ye do so well esteme the Doctours of the Church.

MarginaliaVniuersalitie hath a double vnderstanding.Now as for vniuersalitie, it may haue ij. meaninges: one to vnderstād that to be Vniuersall which from the begynnyng in all ages hath bene allowed: an other, to vnderstand vniuersalitie for the multitude of our age or of any other singular age.

No, ne, sayth Maister Secretary, these three do alwayes agree: & where there is one, there is all the rest: and here he and I chaūged many wordes. And finally, to be short in this matter, we did not agree.

There was none, quoth Maister Fecknam, before Berengarius, Wickleffe, & Hus, and now in our dayes Carolostadius, and Oecolampadius. And Carolostadius sayth, Christ pointeth to his owne body, and not the Sacrament, and sayd: Hoc est corpus meum. And Melancthon writeth to one Micronius, (Miconius sayd I) these or like wordes: MarginaliaMelancton. ad Myconiū.Nullā satis grauē rationē inuenire possum, propter quā a fide maiorū in hac materia dissentiam. i.  

I can finde no grounded reason to cause me to dissent from the beliefe of our foreelders.

[Back to Top]

Thus when he had spoken at length, with many other wordes moe: MarginaliaThe doctrine of the Sacrament not new.Syr sayd I, it is certeine that other before these haue written of this matter, not by the way onely and obiter, as doth for the most all the old writers, but euen ex professo, & their whole bookes intreate of it alone, as Bertram.  

[Back to Top]

Bertram, said the Secretary? what man was he, and when was hee,  

and how do ye know? &c. with many questions.

Syr, quoth I, I haue read his booke: he proponeth the same which is now in controuersie, and aunswereth so directly that no man may doubt but that he affirmeth, that the substaunce of bread remaineth still in the Sacrament: and he wrote vnto Carolus Magnus.

Mary (quoth he) marke, for there is a matter. He wrote, quoth he, ad Henricum, and not ad Carolum, for no author maketh any such mention of Bertramus.

Yes, quoth I, Trithemius in Catalogo illustrium scriptorum speaketh of him. Trithemius was but of late tyme: but he speaketh, quoth I, of them that were of antiquitie. Here, after much talke of Bertrā what authors haue ye, quoth Maister Secretary, to make of the Sacrament a figure?

MarginaliaDoctors that make the Sacrament to be a figure.Syr quoth I, ye know (I thinke) that MarginaliaTertullianus.Tertullian in playne wordes speaketh thus: Hoc est corpus, id est figura corporis mei. i.  

This is my body, that is to say, a figure of my body. And MarginaliaGelasius.Gelasius sayth playnly that Substantia panis manet. i.  

Latin/Greek Translations     Close

Gelasius

Foxe text citation

Substantia panis manet

[As in 1563]

Foxe text translation

The substance of bread remayneth.

Actual text of Gelasius

[Unable to locate in Migne (is it Gelasius I?)]

The substance of bread remayneth. And MarginaliaOrigen.Origene saith likewise: Quod sanctificatur secundum materiam, ingreditur stomachum & vadit in fecessum. i.  

Latin/Greek Translations     Close

Origen

Foxe text citation

Quod sanctificatur secundum materiam, ingreditur stomachum & vadit in secessum.

Foxe text translation

That which is sanctified, as touchyng the matter or substaunce, passeth away into the draught.

[ingreditur stomachum ('enters the stomach') does not appear in the English translation above.]

Actual text of Origen

[Cannot trace in Migne or TLG.]

That which is sanctified, as touchyng the matter or substaunce, passeth away into the draught. This when I had Englished, Maister Secretary sayd to me, you know very well as any man. &c. and here, if I would, I might haue bene set in a foolishe paradise of his commendation of my learnyng, and quòd essem vir multæ lectionis. i. A man of much reading.   But this I would not take at hys hand. He set me not vp so hye, but I brought my selfe as low agayne: and here was much adoe.

[Back to Top]

As for Melancthon (quoth I) whom Maister Fecknam spake of, I maruell that ye will alledge hym, for we are more nye an agreement here in England, then the opinion of Melancthon to you. For in this poynt we all agree here, that there is in the Sacrament but one material substaūce: and Melancthon (as I weene) sayth there are two.

[Back to Top]

Ye say truth, quod M. Secretary: Melancthons opinion is so. But I pray you: ye haue read, that the Sacrament was in olde tyme so reuerenced, that many were then forbidden to be present at the ministratiō therof? Catecumeni (quoth he) and many moe.

Truth Sir (quoth I) there were called some Audientes, some Pœnitentes, some MarginaliaCatechimeni and others went out at the ministration.Catechumeni, and some Energumeni, which were commaunded to depart.

Now (quoth he) then, and how can ye then make but a figure or a signe of the Sacramēt, as that booke which is set forth in my Lord of Canterburies name?  

MarginaliaThe booke of Catechisme. Iwisse ye cā tel who made it: did not ye make it? and here was much murmuryng of the rest, as though they would haue geuen me the glory of the writyng of the booke, which yet there was sayd of some there, to conteine most heynous heresie that euer was.

[Back to Top]

Maister Secretary, quoth I, that booke was made of a great learned man, and him which is able to doe the lyke agayne. As for me, I ensure you (be not deceaued in me) I was neuer able to do or write any such lyke thyng: he passeth me no lesse, then the learned Maister his young scholer.

Now, here euery man would haue his saying, which I passe ouer, not much materiall for to tell. But Syr, quoth I, me thinkes, it is not charitably done, to beare the people in hand, that any man doth so lightly esteme the Sacrament as to make of it but a figure. For that [but] maketh it a bare figure without any more profit: which that booke doth often deny, as appeareth to the reader most playnly.

[Back to Top]

Yes, quoth he, that they do.

Syr no, quoth I, of a truth. And as for me, I ensure you, I make no lesse of the Sacramēt then thus: I say that who soeuer receaueth the Sacrament, he receaueth therewith either lyfe or death.

No, quoth maister Secretary, scripture saith not so.

Syr, quoth I, although not in the same sounde of wordes, yet it doth in the same sense, and S. Augustine sayth in the sound of wordes also. For Paul sayth: The bread which we breake, is it not the partaking or fellowship of the body of Christ? and MarginaliaAugust.S. Augustine: māduca vitam, bibe vitam. i.  

Eate lyfe, drinke lyfe.Then sayd Maister Pope, what can ye make of it when ye say, there is not the real body of Christ? which I do beleue &c. and I pray God I may neuer beleue other. How can it bryng (as ye say) either lyfe or death, when Christes body is not there?

[Back to Top]

MarginaliaThe Sacrament may bryng lyfe without trāsubstantiatiō.Syr, quoth I, when ye heare Gods word truly preached, if ye do beleue it and abide in it, ye shall and do receaue life withall: and if ye do not beleue it, it doth bryng vnto you death: and yet Christes body is still in heauen and not carnall in euery preachers mouth.

[Back to Top]

I pray you tell me (quoth he) how can you aunswere to this: Quod pro vobis tradetur: Which shall bee geuen for you? was the figure of Christes body geuen for vs?

No Syr, quoth I, but the very body it selfe, wherof the Sacrament is a Sacramentall figure.

How say ye then, quoth he, to, Quod pro vobis tradetur: Which shall bee geuen for you?

Forsooth, quoth I, Tertullians exposition maketh it playne. For he sayth: MarginaliaTertullianus.Corpus est figura corporis. i.  

The body is a figure of the body. Now put to: Quod pro vobis tradetur: Which shall bee geuen for you, and it agreeth exceedyng well.

In fayth, quoth he, I would geue xl. pound, that ye were of a good opinion. For I ensure you I haue heard you, and had an affection to you.

I thanke you Maister Pope, for your hart and mind, and ye know, quoth I, I were a very foole if I would in this matter dissent from you, if that in my conscience the truth did not enforce me so to do. For Iwisse (as ye do perceaue, I trow) it is somewhat out of my way, if I would esteme worldly gayne.

[Back to Top]

What say ye, quoth he, to Cyprian? doth he not say playnly, MarginaliaCyprian.Panis quem dedit Dominus non effigie sed natura mutatus omnipotētia verbi factus est caro? i. The bread which the Lord dyd deliuer, being chaūged, not accordyng to the forme but accordyng to the nature therof, by the omnipotent worde is made flesh.  

[Back to Top]