MarginaliaAn. 1555. February.trary shalbe proued to be true, and then let any man that will, conferre with me by writyng.

L. Chaū. Nay, that shall not be permitted thee. Thou shalt neuer haue so much profered thee as thou hast now,MarginaliaSte. Gardiner refusing to haue the truth to be tryed by learning. if thou refuse it, and wilt not now condescend and agree to the catholicke church. Here are. ij. things: mercy, and Iustice: if thou refuse the Queenes mercy now, then shalt thou haue iustice ministred vnto thee.

Rog. I neuer offended, nor was disobedient vnto her Grace: and yet I wyll not refuse her mercy. But if this shall be denyed me, to conferre by writing and to try out the truth, then is it not well, but to farre out of the way. MarginaliaThe Byshops neyther will stand by their assertion, nor yet will suffer other men so to doe.Ye your selues (all the Bishops of þ^e realme) brought me to the knowledge of the pretensed primacy of the bishop of Rome, when I was a yong man, twenty yeares past: and wyll ye nowe wythout collation, haue me to say and doe the contrary? I can not bee so perswaded.

L. Chan. If thou wilt not receiue the bishop of Rome to be supreme head of the catholicke Church, then thou shalt neuer haue her mercy, thou mayest bee sure. And as touching conferring and tryall, MarginaliaA fayre pretense to excuse your ignoraunce.I am forbydden by the scriptures to vse any conferring and tryall wyth thee. For S. Paule teacheth me, that I shall shun and eschue an Hereticke, after one or two monitions, knowing that such an one is ouerthrowen and is faulty, in as much as he is condemned by hys own iudgement.

Rog. My Lord, I deny that I am an hereticke: proue ye that first, and then alledge the aforesayd text. But stil the L. Chauncelor played on one strynge, saying.

MarginaliaGardiner will compell to that, which he can not teach to be true.L. Chan. If thou wilt enter into one church with vs. &c. tell vs that, or els thou shalt neuer haue so much profered thee agayne, as thou hast now.

Rog. I wyll finde it first in the scripture, and see it tried thereby, before I receaue him to be supreme head.

Wor. Why? do ye not know what is in your Crede, Credo ecclesiam sanctam Catholicam: I beleue the holy Catholike Church?

Rog. I fynde not the Byshoppe of Rome there. For MarginaliaCatholicke what it signifieth.[catholike] signifieth not the Romish Church: It signifieth the consent of all true teaching churches of all tymes, & all ages. MarginaliaThe Popes Church proued not to be Catholicke.But how should the Bishop of Romes church be one of them, which teacheth so many doctrines that are playnly and directly agaynst the woorde of God? Can that Bishop be the true head of the Catholycke church that doth so? that is not possible.

L. Ch. Shew me one of thē, one, one, let me heare one.

Rog. I remembred my selfe, that amonges so many I were best to shew one, and sayd, I wil shew you one.

L. Ch. Let me heare that, let me heare that.

Rog. The Bishop of Rome and his Church, say, read, and sing al that they do in their congregations, in latin,MarginaliaLatin seruice. which is directly and playnly agaynst the first to the Corinth. the xiiij. Chapter.

L. Chan. I deny that, I deny that, that it is agaynst the word of God. Let me see you proue that: how proue ye that?

Rog. Thus I began to say the text from the beginning of the chapter: Qui loquitur lingua &c. to speak with toung, sayd I, is to speake with a straunge tong: as latin or Greke. &c. MarginaliaSpeaking in a straunge tounge, against S. Paule. 1. Cor. 14.and so to speake, is not to speake vnto men, but to God. But ye speake in Latin, which is a straunge tonge: wherfore ye speake not vnto men, but vnto God (meaning God onely at the most). This he graūted, that they speake not vnto mē but vnto god.

L. Chan. Well, then it is in vayne vnto men.

Rog. No not in vayne. For one man speaketh in one tonge, and an other in an other tonge, and all well.

L. Chan. Nay I will proue then that he speaketh neither to God nor to man, but into the winde.MarginaliaTo speake to God onely. To speak both to god & to mā. To speake neither to god nor man, but to the winde.

Rog. I was willing to haue declared howe and after what sorte these two textes do agree (for they must agree: they be both the sayings of the holy Ghost, spokē by the Apostle Paul) as to witte, to speake, not to men

but vnto God, and to speake into the winde: and so to haue gone forward with the proufe of my matter begon: but here arose anoyse and a confusion. Then said the L. Chauncellour.

L. Chan. To speake vnto God, and not vnto God were vnpossible.

Rog. I will proue them possible.

L. Haward. No sayd my Lorde William Haward to my Lord Chauncellor: now will I beare you witnes, that he is out of the way. For he graunted first that they which speake in a straunge speach, speake vnto God: & now he sayth the contrary, that they speake neyther to God, nor to man.

Rog. I haue not graunted or sayd (turning me to my Lord Haward) as ye reporte. I haue alleaged the one text, & now I come to the other. They must agree, and I can make thē to agree. But as for you, you vnderstād not the matter.

L. Haward. I vnderstand so much, that that is not possible.

This is a poynt of Sophistrie, quoth MarginaliaSecretary Bourne.Secretary Bourne.

L. Chan. Then the Lorde Chauncellor began to tell the L. Haward, that whē he was in high Dutchland,  

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Northern Germany

Worcest. Yea and at Wittembergh to.

Rog. Yea (but I could not be heard for the noyse) in an Vniuersitie, where men for the most part vnderstand the Latine, and yet not all in Latine. And I would haue told the order, & haue gone forward, both to haue aunswered my Lord, and to haue proued the thing that I had taken in hand: MarginaliaM. Rogers could not be heard to speake.but perceauing theyr talkyng and noyse to be to noysome, I was fayne to thinke this in my hart (suffering them in the meane while to talke one of them one thing, and an other a nother): Alas, neither wil these mē heare me if I speake, neyther yet wil they suffer me to write. There is no remedy, but let them alone, & commit the matter to God. Yet I began to goe forward, and sayd that I would make the textes to agree, and proue all my purpose wel inough.

L. Chan. No, no, thou canst proue nothing by the scripture. The scripture is dead: it must haue a liuely expositor.

Rog. No, the scripture is a lyue. But let me go forward wyth my purpose.

MarginaliaThe Papistes will abyde no exposition of the scripture but their owne.Wor. All heretickes haue alledged the scriptures for them: and therefore we must haue a lyuely expositor for them.

Rog. Yea, all Hereticks haue alledged the scriptures for them: but they were confuted by the scriptures, and by none other expositor.

Wor. But they would not confesse that they were ouercome by the scriptures, I am sure of that.

Rog. I beleue that: and yet were they ouercome by them, and in al Councels they were disputed with and ouerthrowē by the scriptures. And here I would haue declared howe they ought to proceede in these dayes, and so haue come agayne to my purpose, but it was vnpossible: MarginaliaConfused talke without order.for one asked one thyng, an other sayd another, so that I was fayne to hold my peace, and let thē talke. And euen when I would haue takē hold on my proufe, the L. Chaūcellor bad, to prison with me again: and away, away (said he) we haue moe to talke withal: if I would not be reformed (so he termed it) away, away. Thē vp I stoode, for I had kneeled all the whyle.

Then MarginaliaSir Rich. Southwell speaketh.Sir Richard Southwell, who stood in a window by, sayd to me: thou wilt not burne in thys geare when it commeth to the purpose,  

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Southwell is saying that if the chips were down, Rogers would not die for his beliefs.

Rog. Syr, I cā not tel, but I trust to my Lord God, yes, liftyng vp myne eyes vnto heauen.

MarginaliaThe B. of Ely speaketh.B. of Ely. Then my Lord of Ely told me much of the Queenes Maiesties pleasure and meanyng, and set it