MarginaliaAn. 1555. Iuly.wordes might well serue if that you so would.

Harps. Well, I perceiue you haue knowledge, and by a litle perceiue I the more. Tell me yet more, whether this multitude haue not the ministerie or preachyng of Gods word?

Brad. Syr, ye go about the bushe. MarginaliaPreaching of the Gospel goeth euer with the church. vnles it be interrupt sometime by persecutiō.If ye vnderstand preaching for cōfessing the Gospell, I will go with you: for els if you will, you may know that persecutiō often letteth preaching.

Harps. Well, I meane it so. Tell me yet more: hath it not the Sacramentes administred?

MarginaliaAdministration of Sacraments is one note, but not the cause of the true church. And yet not such a note, but that it may often be letted by persecutiō, and yet the true church remaine.Brad. It hath the Sacramentes: howbeit, the administration of them is often letted. But I will put you from your purpose, because I see wherabout you goe. If Heretickes haue Baptisme and do Baptise, as they did in S. Cyprians time, you know this Baptisme is Baptisme, and not to be reiterate. This Bradford did speake, that the standers by might see, that MarginaliaThe Popes church hath Baptisme and Sacraments administred: Ergo, the Popes church is the true church. MarginaliaThe argumēt fayleth, a causa non sufficiente, vel a non causa vt causa.  

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Foxe comment [Left margin]

Foxe text Latin

a causa non sufficiente, vel a non causa vt causa.

Foxe text translation

Not translated.

Translation (Wade 2003)

[The argument fails] from a not sufficient reason, or for no reason as (much as) for a reason(?)

Harps. You go farre frō the matter, and I perceiue you haue more errours then one.

Brad. So you say: but that is not enough till you proue them.

MarginaliaA Popish distinctiō of the church, to be a multitude hauing preaching of the Gospell, ministration of the sacramēts, power of iurisdiction, and succession of Bishops.Harps. Well, this Church is a multitude. Hath it not the preaching of the Gospel, & the ministratiō of the Sacramentes? and yet more: hath it not the power of iurisdiction?

Brad. What iurisdiction is exercised in persecution and affliction?

Harps. I meane by iurisdiction, admonishing one an other, and so forth.

Brad. Well, go to: what then?

Harps. It hath also succession of Bishops. And here he made much a do to proue that this was an essentiall point.

MarginaliaSuccessiō of Bishops is no essentiall part of the church, but rather accidens commune, which being interupted yet the church may stand, as it did both before Christs cōming and after, at the comming of Antichrist.Brad. You say as you would haue it: for if this part faile you, all the Church you go about to set vp will fall down. You shall not find in all the Scripture this your essentiall part of succession of Bishops. In Christes Church Antichrist will sit. And Peter telleth vs, as it went in the old Church afore Christes comming: so wil it be in the new Church sithen Christes comming: that is, as there were false Prophetes, and such as bare rule were aduersaries to the true Prophetes: so shall there be (saith he) false teachers, euen of such as are Byshops, and beare rule amongest the people.

Harps. You go alwayes out of the matter: but I wil proue further the succession of Bishops.

Bradford. Do so.

Harps. Tell me, were not the Apostles Bishops?MarginaliaApostles and Byshops, be sundry offices.

Brad. No, except you will make a new definition of a Bishop, that is, geue him no certaine place.

Harps. In deede, the Apostles office was not the Bishops office: for it was vniuersall, but yet Christ instituted Bishops in his Church as Paul saith: he hath geuen Pastours, Prophetes. &c. so that I trow it be proued by the Scriptures the succession of Bishops to be an essentiall point.

Brad. MarginaliaThe ministrie of Gods word and ministers, be an essentiall poynt of the true church: but not the locall succession of ministers in one certayne place.The ministerie of Gods word, and ministers, be an essentiall point. But to translate this to the Bishops and their succession, is a playne subtilitie: And therefore that it may be playne, I will aske you a question. Tell me, whether that the Scripture knew any difference betwene Bishops and Ministers, which ye call Priestes.

Harps. No.

Brad. Well, then go on forwardes, and let vs see what ye shall get now by the succession of Bishops, that is of ministers, which can not bee vnderstand of such Bishops as minister not, but Lord it.

MarginaliaThe ascent and descent of successiō of high Priestes.Harps. I perceiue that you are farre out of the way. By your doctrine you can neuer shewe in your Church, a multitude which ministreth Gods worde and his Sacramentes, which hath iurisdiction and succession of Byshops, which hath from tyme to tyme beleued as you beleue, begynnyng now and so goyng vpwardes as I will do of our doctrine, and therefore are ye out of the Church, and so can not be saued. Perchaunce you will bryng me downewardes a shewe to bleare peoples eyes: but to go vpwardes, that can you neuer do, and this is the true triall.

Brad. Ye must and wil, I am assured, geue me leaue to folow the Scriptures and examples of good men.

Harps. Yea.

Brad. Well then, Steuen was accused and condemned as I am, that he had taught new and false doctrine before the fathers of the Church then as they were taken. Steuen for his purgation improueth their accusation. But how? doth he it by goyng vpwardes? no, but by commyng downwardes, begynnyng at Abraham, and cōtinuing still till Esayas time, and the peoples captiuitie. Frō whence he maketh a great leape vntill that tyme hee was in, which was (I thinke) vppon a 400. yeares, & called them by their right names helhoundes, rather then heauen houndes. On this sort will I proue my faith, and that can you neuer do yours.

Harps. Yea Syr, if we did know that you had the holy Ghost, then could we beleue you. MarginaliaThe Papistes chalenge to thē the true church, euen as the mother of the dead child, chalenged the liuing child from the true mother. 3. Reg. 3.Here Bradford would haue aunswered, that Steuens enemyes would not beleue he had the holy Ghost, and therfore they did as they did: but as he was in speakyng, M. Harpsfield arose vp, and the keeper and others that stoode by, begā to talke gently, praying Bradford to take heede to that Maister Archdeacō spake, who still sayd, that Bradford was out of the Church.

Brad. Syr, I am most certain that I am in Christes Church, and I can shewe a demonstration of my Religion from tyme to tyme continually.

MarginaliaBradfords prayer.God our father, for the name and bloud of his Christ, be mercifull vnto vs and vnto all his people, and deliuer them from false teachers, and blind guides, through whō (alas) I feare me, much hurt will come to this Realme of England. God our father blesse vs, and keepe vs in his truth and poore Church for euer, Amen.

Then þ^e Archdeacon departed, saying that he would come agayne the next mornyng.

VPon the xvj. of February in the mornyng the MarginaliaArchdeacō Harpsfield returneth agayne to Maister Bradford.Archdeacon and the other two with hym came agayne, and after a few bywordes spoken, they sat downe.

Harps. M. Archdeacon began a very long Oration, first repetyng what they had sayd, and how farre they had gone ouer night, and therwith did begyn to proue vpwardes succession of Byshops here in England for 800. yeares: MarginaliaMaister Harpsfield againe proueth hys church by succession of high Priestes.in Fraunce at Lions for 1200. yeares: in Spayne at Hispalen for 800. yeares: in Italy at Millan for 1200. yeres, labouring by this to proue his church. He vsed also succession of Bishops in the East Church for the more confirmation of his wordes, and so concluded with an exhortation and an interrogation: the exhortation, that Bradford would obey this Church: the interrogation, whether Bradford could shew any such succession for the demonstration of his Church (for so he called it) which he followed.

MarginaliaBradfords answere to Maister Harpsfieldes oration.Brad. Vnto this his long Oration Bradford made this short aunswere: my memory is euill, so that I can not aunswere particularly your Oration. Therefore I wil generally do it, thinking, because your oration is rather to perswade then to proue, that a small aunswere wil serue. If Christ or his Apostles being here on earth had bene required by the Prelates of the Church then to haue made a demonstration of that Church by succession of such high Priestes as had approued the doc-