Marginalia1554. Aprill.had not neede to be in my case, but shoulde haue them in a readines, and knowe their purpose. MarginaliaMelanctons iudgement of the old Doctours.Melancthon sayth, if the Doctours had foreseene that they should haue bene so taken in this controuersie, they would haue written more plainly.

Smyth. I wil reduce the wordes of Hyllarye into the forme of a Sillogisme.

Lat. I vnderstand you not.

Seat. I know your learning wel enough, and how subtile ye be: MarginaliaDoct. Seton reasoneth against M. Latimer out of S. Cyprian.I wyl vse a fewe wordes with you, and that out of Cypriā, De cœna domini. The olde Testament doth forbyd the drinking of bloud. The new Testament doth coōmaund the drinking and tasting of bloud: but where doth it commaund the drinking of bloud?

Lat. In these wordes: Bibite ex hoc omnes, that is: drinke ye al of this.

Seat. Then we taste true bloud.

Lat. We doo taste true bloud, but spiritually: and this is enough.

Seat. Nay, the olde and newe Testament in thys do *MarginaliaBy that reason the new and olde Testamēt should not differ, but should be contrary one from the other, which cannot be true in naturall, or morall preceptes. differ: for the one doth commaund, the other doth forbid to drinke bloud.

Lat. It is true as touching the matter, but not as touching the maner of the thing.

Seat. Then there is no difference betweene the drinkyng of bloud in the new Testament, and that of the old: for they also dranke spiritually.

Lat. And we drinke spiritually also: but a more precious bloud.

West. Augustine vpon the. 45. Psalme saith: Securè bibite sanguinem quem fudistis. i.  

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S. Augustine on Ps 45?

The following information is kindly supplied by D H Frost of St David's Catholic College, Cardiff. Citations are derived from his work in progress onSacrament an Alter (SA), a Tudor Catholic eucharistic catena, drawn from Foxe's 1576 account of the Oxford Disputations, translated into Cornish and appended to the Cornish translation of Bishop Bonner's Homilies, BL Add. MS 46397.

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not in SA

Secure bibite sanguinem quem fudistis

Drinke boldlye the bloud which ye haue poured out

Ergo, it is bloud.

Lat. I neuer denyed it, nor neuer wyl go from it, but that we drinke the very bloud of Christ in deede, but spiritually: for the same s. Augustine saith: Crede, et manducasti. i.  

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S. Augustine

The following information is kindly supplied by D H Frost of St David's Catholic College, Cardiff. Citations are derived from his work in progress onSacrament an Alter (SA), a Tudor Catholic eucharistic catena, drawn from Foxe's 1576 account of the Oxford Disputations, translated into Cornish and appended to the Cornish translation of Bishop Bonner's Homilies, BL Add. MS 46397.

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not in SA

Crede, et manducasti.

West. Nay: Credere, non est bibere nec edere. i.  

Latin/Greek Translations     Close

S. Augustine?

The following information is kindly supplied by D H Frost of St David's Catholic College, Cardiff. Citations are derived from his work in progress onSacrament an Alter (SA), a Tudor Catholic eucharistic catena, drawn from Foxe's 1576 account of the Oxford Disputations, translated into Cornish and appended to the Cornish translation of Bishop Bonner's Homilies, BL Add. MS 46397.

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Not in SA

Credere, non est bibere nec edere

I have not yet found this reference in St Augustine - it may simply be a rhetorical repost by Weston or alternatively come from another source.

West. I remember my Lord Chancelour demaunded M. Hooper of these questions, whether *MarginaliaEdere in some places is taken for credere, but that in all places it is so taken it followeth not. (Edere) to eate, were (Credere) to beleue, and (Altare) an Aulter, were Christ, in all the Scripture. &c. And he aunsweared, yea.

Then said my Lord Chauncellour: Why? then *MarginaliaThis place of the Hebrewes allu- to the olde sacrifice of the Iewes, who in the feast of popitiation, the x. day, vsed to cary the flesh of the sacrifice out of the tentes to be burned on an altar without, becase none of them which serued in the Tabernacle should eate thereof: only the bloud was caried by the high Priest into the holy place. Habemus Altare de quo non licet edere. i. We haue an Aultare, of which it is not lawfull to eate, is as muche to say, as Habemus Christum, in quo non licet credere. i. We haue a Christ, in whom we may not beleue.

Tresh. Beleue, and thou hast eaten, is spoken of the spiritual eating.

Lat. It is true, I doo allowe your saying: I take it so also.

West. We are commaunded to drinke bloud in the newe Lawe.

Ergo it is very bloud.

Lat. We drinke bloud, so as apperteineth to vs to drinke to our comfort, in sacramentall wyne. We drinke bloud sacramētally: he gaue vs his body to drink spiritually: he wēt about to shew, that as certainly as we drinke wyne, so certainly we drinke his bloud spiritually.

West. Do not you seeme to be a papist, which doo bring in new wordes, not found in the scripture? Where finde you that (Sacramentaliter) Sacramentally, in Gods booke?

Lat. It is necessarily gathered vpon scripture.

West. The old Testamēt doth forbyd the tasting of bloud: but the newe doth commaund it.

Lat. It is true, not as touching the thing, but as touching the maner therof.

West. Heare ye people, this is the argument.

MarginaliaArgument not formall.That which was forbydden in the olde Testament, is commaunded in the new.

To drinke bloud was forbydden in the old Testament, and commaunded in the new:

Ergo, it is very bloud that we drinke in the new.

☞ This argument, because the Maior thereof is not vniuersal, is not formal, and may wel be retorted against We-

ston thus:

Lat. MarginaliaAunswere.It is commaunded spiritually to be drunken. I grant it is bloud drunken in the new Testament: but we receiue it spiritually.

Pie. It was not forbydden spiritually in the old law.

Lat. The substaunce of bloud is drunken, but not in one maner.

Pie. It doth not require the same maner of drinkyng.

Lat. It is the same thyng, not the same maner. I haue no more to say.

West. Here Weston cyted the place of MarginaliaChrysostome.Chrysostome, of Iudas treason: O Iudæ dementia. Ille cum Iudæis triginta denarijs paciscebatur, vt Christum venderet, et Christus ei sanguinem, quem vendidit offerebat: that is: O the madnes of Iudas. He made bargaine with the Iewes for thirty pence, to sel Christ: and Christ offred hym his bloud which he sold.

Lat. I graunt he offered to Iudas his bloud, which he sold: but in a sacrament.

West. Because ye can defend your Doctors no better, ye shall see howe worshipfull men ye hang vppon: and one that hath bene of your mynd, shal dispute with you. M. Cartwright,MarginaliaD. Cartwryght vrged to dispute. I pray you dispute.

Cart. Reuerende father, because it is geuen me in commaundement to dispute with you, I wyl do it gladly. But first vnderstande ere we go any further, that I was in the same errour that you are in: MarginaliaCartwryght returning to his olde errour agayne.but I am sorye for it, and doo confesse my self to haue erred. I acknowledge myne offence, and I wishe and desire God that you also may repent with me.

Lat. Wyll you geue me leaue to tell what hath caused master Doctor here to recant? MarginaliaArgumentum a pœna legis. Durum & difficile.It is pæna legis. the payne of the lawe, which hath brought you backe, and conuerted you, & many moe: the which letteth many to confesse God. And this is a great argument, there are fewe here can dissolue it.

Cart. That is not my cause: but I wyll make you this short argument, by which I was conuerted from mine errours.

MarginaliaArgum. a destructoine consequentis, ad destructionem antecedentes.If the true body of Christ be not really in the Sacrament, all the whole Church hath erred from the Apostles tyme.

But Christ would not suffer his church to erre:

Ergo, it is the true body of Christ.

Lat. The popish Church hath erred, & doth erre. MarginaliaNo mention made of any eating, but spiritually in the church for the space of 700. yeares.I thinke for the space of sixe or seuen hundred yeares, there was no mention made of any eatyng but spiritually: for before these fiue hundred yeares, the Churche dyd euer confesse a spirituall manducation. But the Romish church begate the errour of transubstantiation. My Lorde of Canterburyes booke handleth that very wel, and by hym I could answere you, if I had hym.

Cart. Linus and all the rest do confesse the body of Christ to be in the sacrament: and s.Augustine also vpon the. 98. Psalme, vpon this place: Adorate scabellum pedum. &c. graunteth it to be worshipped.

Lat. We doo worship Christ in the heauens, and we doo worship hym in the sacrament: but the massing worship is not to be vsed.

Smith. Do you thinke that Cyril was of the auncient church?

Lat. I doo thinke so.

Smyth. He sayth, that Christe dwelleth in vs corporally: MarginaliaCyrillus in Ioan. Lib. 10. cap. 13. These be Cyrils wordes of the mystical benediction.

Lat. That (* corporally) hath an other vnderstanding, then you do grossely take it.

☞ Cyril sayth, that Christ dwelleth corporally in vs, but he sayth not, that Christe dwelleth corporallye in the bread. Which dwellyng of Christ in vs, is as our dwellyng is also in Christ, not local or corporal, but spiritual, & heauēly (Corporally) therfore is to be takē here in þ^e same sense, as s. Paul saith, the fulnes of diuinitie to dwell in Christe corporally, that is, not lightly nor accidentally, but perfectly and substantially, with all his vertue and power. &c. And so dwelleth Christ corporally in vs also.

Smyth. Here Smyth repeateth these words of Cyril. Per communionem corporis Christi, habitat in nobis Christus corporaliter. that is, By the communicating of the body of