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How answere you to this argument?

phil. I denye the antecedent, that the Catholique Churche is onely knowen by vniuersalitie, and succession of Bishops.

Yorke. I wyl proue it. And with that he brought foorth a booke whiche he had noted out of the Doctours, and turned to his common places therin of the church, and recited one or two out of S. Austine, & specially out of his Epistle written against the Donatistes, where S. Austine manifestly *Marginalia* To this is sufficiently aunswered before. proueth, that the Donatistes were not the catholike church, because they had no succession of bishops in their opinion, neither vniuersalitie: and the same force hath s. Austines argument against you.

phil. My Lorde, I haue weighed the force of that argument before now, and I perceiue it maketh nothing against me, neither it commeth to your purpose. For I wil stande to the trial of S. Austine for the approbatiō of the catholike Church, wherof I am. MarginaliaVniuersalitie alwayes to be ioyned with Veritie.For s. Austine speaketh of vniuersalitie ioyned with veritie, and of faithful successors of Peter, before corruption came into the Church. And so if you can deduce your argumēt for the See of Rome now, as S. Austen might doo in his time, I woulde saye it might be of some force: otherwise not.

Yorke. S. Austen proueth the Catholike church *Marginalia* Not principally by your leaue, my Lord. principally by succession of Bishops, and therfore you vnderstand not s. Austen. For what, I pray you, was the opinion of the Donatistes, againste whom he wrote? Can you tel? What countrey were they of?

Phil. They were a certaine sect of men, affirming among other, heresies, that the dignitie of the sacramentes depended vpon the worthines of the Minister: so that if the Minister were good, the sacramentes which he ministred were auailable, or els not.MarginaliaThe errour of the Donatistes.

Chichest. That was their error, and they had none other but that. And he read an other authoritie of s. Austen, out of a booke, which he brought euen to the same purpose that the other was.

phil. I challenge saint Austen to be with me throughly in this poynt, and wyl stand to his iudgemēt, taking one place with an other.

Chich. If you wil not haue the Church to be certaine, I pray you by whom wil you be iudged in matters of controuersie?

Phil. MarginaliaThe Church may be certeine and yet not tyed to one place.I do not deny the Church to be certaine: but I denye that it is necessarily tyed to any place, longer then it abideth in the word, and for al controuersies the word ought to be iudge.

Chich. But what if I take it one way, & you an other? how then?

Phil. S. Austen sheweth a remedie for that, and wylleth, MarginaliaAugust. De doctrina Christiana.quòd vnus locus per plura intelligi debeat:  

Latin/Greek Translations     Close

St. Augustine, Epistolae CXIII, 1. (?)

Foxe text Latin

Quod vnus locus per plura intelligi debeat

Foxe text translation

That one place of the Scripture ought to be vnderstand by the moe.[sic].

Actual text of St. Augustine

Hoc enim quibusdam Scripturae illius locis apertissime expressum admonet, etiam ubi non dictum est, quid intelligi debeat.

[Is this a paraphrase of this passage from a letter of Augustine to Marcellinus?]

Yorke. How answeare you to this argument?

MarginaliaArgument A causa non sufficiente et non totali.Rome hath a knowen succession of Bishoppes, which your church hath not.

Ergo, that is the Catholike Churche, and yours is not, because there is no suche succession can be proued for your church.

Phil. MarginaliaThe Argument denyed.I deny (my Lorde) that succession of Bishops is an infallible poynt to knowe the church by: for there may be a succession of Bishops knowen in a place, and yet there be no Church, as at Antioche and at Hierusalem, and in other places, where the Apostles abode as wel as at Rome. But if you put to the succession of bishops succession of doctrine withal (as S. Austen doth) I wyl graunt it to be a good proofe for the Catholike church: MarginaliaLocall succession without succession of doctrine, nothing auaylethbut a local succession only is nothing vailable.

Yorke. You wyll haue no church then, I see wel.

Phil. Yes, my lorde, I acknowledge the Catholike church, as I am bound by my Creede: but I can not acknowledge a false church for the true.

Chich. Why, is there two catholike churches then?

Phil. No, I know there is but one catholike churche, but there haue bene and be at this present, that take vpon them the name of Christ & of his church, which be not so in deede, as it is written: MarginaliaApoca. 2.That there be that cal thē selues Apostles and be not so in deede, but the Synagogue of Satan, & lyers. And now it is with vs, Marginalia1. Reg. 3.MarginaliaThe mother Church of Rome compared to the woman in Salomons tyme, that falsly chalenged the true mothers child from her.as it was with the two women in Salomons tyme, which laye together, and the one suppressed her childe, and afterwarde went aboute to challenge the true mothers childe.

Chich. What a babling is here with you nowe? I see you lacke humilitie. You wyll gooe about to teache, and not to learne.

Phil. My lords, I must desire you to beare with my hasty speach: it is my infirmitie of nature. All that I speake is to

learne by. I would you did vnderstand al my mind, that I might be satisfied by you through better authoritie.

Chich. My Lord, & it please your grace, turne the argument vpon hym, whiche you haue made, and let hym shewe the succession of the Bishoppes of his Churche, as we can doo. Howe saye you, can you shewe the succession of Bishops in your Church from tyme to tyme? I tel you, this argument troubled Doctour *Marginalia* So ye say now, when ye would geue him no leaue nor tyme when he was alyue to make his aunsweres. Ridley so sore, that he coulde neuer answeare it: yet he was a man well learned, I dare say you wyl say so.

Phil. He was a man so learned, that I was not worthye to cary his bookes for learning.

Chich. I promise you he was neuer able to answeare that. He was a man that I loued well, and he me: for he came vnto me diuers tymes being in prison, and conferred with me.

Phil. I woonder, my Lord, you should make this argument which you would turne vpon me, for the tryall of my church wherof I am, or that you would make bishop Ridley so ignorant that he was not able to answere it, since it is of no force. For behold, first I denyed you that local succession of Bishops in one place, is a necessarye poynt alone to proue the Catholike church by,MarginaliaSuccession of Byshops alone is no sufficient poynt, to proue the Catholicke Church. and that whiche I haue denyed, you can not proue: and is it then reason that you should put me to the tryall of that, which by you is vnproued, and of no force to conclude against me.

Chichest. I see my Lords, we doo but loose our labours to reason with hym: he taketh hym selfe better learned then wee.

Phil. I take vpon me the name of no learnyng: I boast of no knowledge, but of faith & of Christ, and that I am bound vndoubtedly to know, as I am sure I do.

Chich. MarginaliaLeaue your reuiling termes, my Lord, and go to the matterThese heretikes take vpō thē to be sure of al things they stand in. You should say rather with humilitie, I trust I know Christ, then that you be sure thereof.

Phil. Let hym doubt of his faith that lysteth:  

Commentary     Close

Wishes to.

Bath. Howe wyll you be able to answere heretikes, MarginaliaNote how these men ground their fayth not vpon Gods worde, but vpon the determination of their owne knowne Church.but by the determination of the knowen Catholike church?

Phil. I am able to answere all heretikes by the woorde of God, and conuince them by the same.

Chich. Howe arrogantly is that spoken? I dare not say so.

Phil. My Lord, I pray you beare with me: for I am bold in the truth side, and I speake somewhat by experience that I haue had with heretikes: and I know the Arians be the subtilest that euer were, and yet haue I manifest scriptures to beate them downe withal.

Chich. I perceiue nowe you are the same manner of man I haue hearde of, whiche wyll not be satisfied by learnyng.

Phil. Alas, my Lord, why do you say so? I do desire most hūbly to be taught, if there be any better way that I should learne: and hitherto you haue shewed me no better: therefore I praye your Lordship not to misiudge without a cause.

Bath. If you be the true Catholike church, then wyl you hold with the reall presence of Christ in the sacramēt, which the true church hath euer mainteyned.

Phil. And I, my Lord, with the true church do holde the same in the due ministration of the sacrament: but I desire you, my Lorde, there may be made a better conclusion in our first matter, before we enter into any other: for if the church be proued, we shall soone agree in the rest. MarginaliaMy Lord of Yorke driuen to seeke hys bookes.In the meane while my lord of Yorke was turning his booke for moe places to helpe forth his cause.

Yorke. I haue found at length a very notable place, which I haue looked for al this while, of MarginaliaAugust. De simplicitate credendi.S. Austine, De simplicitate credendi.

Chich. It is but folly (my Lorde) that your grace doo reade hym any moe places, MarginaliaM. Philpot falsely reported to deny Doctours.for he esteemeth them not.

Phil. I esteeme them, in as much as they be of force: as your Lordship doth heare me deny no Doctours you bring, but onely require the true application of them, accordyng to the Writers meanyng, & as by his owne wordes may be proued.

Yorke. I wyll reade hym the place, and so make an ende. After he had read the sentence, he saide, that by foure speciall poynts here S. Austine proueth the catholike church. Marginalia
4. Poyntes to proue the Catholicke Church, out of S. Austē.
1. Consent of al nations.The first is, by the consent of al nations, the second, by the Apostolike See, the third, by vniuersalitie, & the fourth, by this worde Catholike.

Chich. That is a notable place in deede, and it please your grace.

Phil. I pray you, my Lord, of what church doth S. Austine write the same, of Rome, or not?