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Edmund Grindal

(1516x20 - 1583) [ODNB]

BA Cambridge 1538; MA 1540; BTh 1549; DTh 1564; archbishop of York (1570 - 75) and Canterbury (1575 - 83)

In the disputation at Cambridge in 1549, William Glyn answered the second disputation, opposed by Andrew Perne, Edmund Grindal, Edmund Guest and James Pilkington. 1570, pp. 1556-57; 1576, pp. 1326-28; 1583, pp. 1382-85.

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Edmund Guest

(1514 - 1577) [ODNB]

b. Northallerton, Yorkshire; BA Cambridge 1541; MA 1544; BTh 1551

Bishop of Rochester (1560 - 71); bishop of Salisbury (1571 - 77)

In the disputation at Cambridge in 1549, William Glyn answered the second disputation, opposed by Andrew Perne, Edmund Grindal, Edmund Guest and James Pilkington. 1570, pp. 1556-57; 1576, pp. 1326-28; 1583, pp. 1382-85.

MarginaliaAnno 1550.nature I know came not from heauen.

Rochester. The bread is his humaine nature, but þ^t humain nature of his came not from heauē, ergo neither the bread.

Glin. It is true that the bread came not frō heauē as bread simply, but as celestiall & heauenly bread. But I will aunswere to that, wheras you hold that þ^e body of Christ came not from heauen: I by that body and flesh of Christ do vnderstand whole Christ, neyther separating his soule, nor yet his Deity, although hys humanity is not turned into his diuinity by confusion of substaunce, but is one by vnity of both. Or els thus I may reason, the God of glory is crucified, and the sonne of Mary created the world. &c.

MarginaliaChrist is called a rocke a vyne, but in figure.Rochester. So it is. But he is called a rocke and a vine, and so after your iudgement he is both a materiall rocke, & also a materiall vine.

Glin. The circumstances there shew playnely that there is a trope or figure: for it foloweth I am the vine, you are the braunches: but here is no trope. For after these words, this is my body, he addeth, which is geuen for you.

MarginaliaThe iudgement of the Papistes very grosse.Rochester. Your iudgement herein is very grosse, and farre discrepant from the truth.

Glin. If my iudgement in this be grosse (most reuerend father) thē are all the auncient fathers as grosse in iudgemēt as I in this poynt and the catholicke church also.

Perne Shew vs one place, or one Doctor who sayth that it remayneth not bread after the consecration.

Glin. I wōder that you are not ashamed to aske that of me, for haue you not had almost infinite places and doctors alledged vnto you in my former declarations prouing as much as you request at my handes?

MarginaliaChrist tooke brake, and gaue bread.Perne. He tooke bread, he brake bread, ergo it is bread.

Glin. I haue answered often hereunto, and I graunt it is bread, but not onely, or materiall.

Perne. Ireneus affirmeth that a sacramēt consisteth of a double matter, of a earthly matter, and of a heauenly, ergo the bread remayneth.

Glin. Ireneus in that place by the earthly matter, meaneth the humanity of Christ, and by the heauenly matter, the deity of Christ.

MarginaliaA Sacrament consisteth in a double matter.Rochester The humanity, and the diuinity of Christ make not a sacrament, which consisteth of a visible, and an inuisible nature, & I deny that Ireneus can be so vnderstanded: Therefore we desire the learned auditory to search Ireneus at home as oportunity will serue for this matter.

Glin. I wish them so to do also with all my hart.

Here Maister Grindall  

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Edmund Grindal was a fellow of Pembroke Hall, Cambridge, and a university proctor in 1549.

beginneth to dispute.

MarginaliaGrindall replyeth.WHeras you say (worshipful M. Doct.) that we speak not now as sometimes we thought, and iudged in this matter, peraduenture you also iudge not so now of all thinges as you haue done tofore. But what we haue once bene, it forceth not, God respecteth no mans person. MarginaliaAugust. Tertull. with many moe call it a figure.And wheras you say that you dare not contrary to Christ cal it a signe, or a figure, August. notwithstanding dareth to call it a figure, and Tertullian likewise with many mo.

Glin. True it is, but they called it not a signe or a figure onely, but proue you (if you can) that after the consecration remayneth any other substaunce then the reall body of Christ?

MarginaliaWhat the forme of bread & wine doe nourishe.Grindall. If the formes do nourish (as you contend) they nourish the naturall and humayne body, for they be both as one, and are nourished a like.

Glin. Your reason is meere phisicall, and therfore to be reiected in matters of fayth, but I graunt they nourish, but miraculously.

Grindall. If you graūt that the formes do nourish, thē you graunt that bread remayneth.

Glin. I sayd euen now that that is true, but the nature of it is chaunged and that miraculously.

MarginaliaIt remayneth bread and wine after the consecration.Grindall. If it be the reall and substaunciall body of Christ because Christ sayde (this is my body) ergo because the Lord sayd I will not drinke of the fruit of this vine, and Paule calleth it bread after the consecration it is therfore bread, & wine.

Glin. Truely syr you must bring better arguments, or els you will proue nothing for your purpose. For to your reasons thus I answere: Chrisost. sayth Christ did drinke of the bloud, but whether this sentence I will not drinke of the fruit of the vine be spokē of the bloud it is not certayne. And truly Erasmus denyeth that it is not to be found in all þ^e whole scripture, that it is called bread after the consecration.MarginaliaHow it is called bread and in what respect. Or els thus I may answere you. Euē as it is called bread for the forme, and kind, and accidentes which remayne, so for þ^e forme, & similitude which it hath it may be called þ^e fruit of the vine after the consecratiō. And wheras Chrisost. calleth it wine, he speaketh of the nature wherof the sacramēt necessarily is made. And I denye not but it may be calledwine, but yet eucharisticall. &c.

Rochest. The Euangelistes, Math. Marke, and Luke, call it the fruit of the vine, and Chrisost. saith that the fruit of the vine is nothing els but wine, ergo Christ gaue them wine, and dranke wine himselfe also, not bloud.

MarginaliaChrist called it wyne not bloud.Glin. Christ said twise I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, once at the eating of the paschall Lambe (as Luke sayth) & then was it wine indeed: And agayne after the consecration of his body and bloud he sayd the like, and then it was not wine, which me think I can proue by the plain words of S. Luke if we compare him with Math. For if it were wine as they both affirme, then the wordes of Christ cannot well stand, because first (as Luke sheweth) he sayde at his legall supper  

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'Legal supper': possibly meaning Supper of the (Jewish) Law or Passover, Jesus' Last Supper.

MarginaliaTwo places assoyled.Rochest. August. doth thus reconcile those places, saying it is spoken by a figure which we call histeron proteron.

Glin I know that August. sayth so, but me thinke þ^t which I haue sayd semeth to be the true meaning of the places.

Rochest. August. seeketh no starting holes, nor yet any indirect shiftes to obscure the truth.

Glin. Say your fatherhoode what you will of Aug. I thinke not so.

MarginaliaIn these wordes this is my body is a trope.Grindall. This cup is the new testament in my bloud, but here is a trope, ergo, in these wordes of Christ (this is my body) is a trope also.

Glin. I deny your argumēt: for wheras Luk saith this cup, Math. sayth this is my bloud, & therfore as Aug. sayth places that be darcke, are to be expounded by other that be light.

Rochest. All of your side, deny þ^t Christ euer vsed any trope in the instituting of sacramentes.

Glin. For my part I hold no opinion but the truth, wherof you your selfe also do pretend the like.

MarginaliaA question wherein consisteth the strēgth of the Sacrament.Rochest. What vnderstād you by this word (hoc, this) & in what words standeth the force or strength of the sacramēt? In this pronowne (hoc, this) or in this verbe (est, is) or els in this whole sentence this is my body?

Glin. It is not made the true body, except all the words be spokē, as in baptisme, I baptise thee in the name of the father, of the sonne, and of the holy ghost. For neither doth baptisme consist in this word ego I, or in baptise, or in this word (te, thee) or in these words in nomine, in the name, &c. but in all the wordes spoken in order.

Grindall. If to eat the body of Christ be a figuratiue speach, as August. sayth it is, ergo, then these wordes (this is my body) is a figuratiue speach also.  

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Examples of Catholics and Protestants disagreeing over the interpretation of the writings of the Fathers of the Church.

MarginaliaTo eate the body of Christ a figuratiue speache.Glin. It is a figuratiue speach, because we eat not the body of Christ after the same maner that we do other meates. &c.

MarginaliaCyprian explaned.Grind. Ciprian vnderstandeth this of those þ^t come vnworthely, & make no difference of þ^e Lordes body speaking of þ^e diiuidicatiō  

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'Dividication': possibly division, meaning distinguishing between the sacraments.

Glin. Truely he speaketh of the true body of Christ.

Rochest. They receiue vnworthely, who neither iudge themselues, nor yet the sacraments taking them as other common bread.

Grind. August. vpon the 33. psal. sayth Christ bare himselfe in his owne handes after a sort, not in deed or truely. &c.

Glin. You omit many other thinges which August. sayth, & I confesse that he caried himselfe in his own handes after a sort, but August. deliuereth this vnto vs, and as a great miracle. And you know it was no great miracle to cary a figure of his body in his hands. And wheras you say þ^t christ caryed himselfe after a sort in his owne handes, it is verye true, but yet diuersly, for he sat after one maner at his supper, & after an other maner he caried himselfe in his hands. For Christ in the visible figure bore himselfe inuisibly.

Grind. Tertullian calleth it a figure, ergo, it is so.

Glin. It is (as I haue sayd) a figure, but not a figure onely. But heare what Tertullian sayth, he tooke bread, and made it his body, saying, this is my body. &c.

MarginaliaChrisost. sup. Math. homil. 11. cap. 5.Grind. Heare what Chrisost. vpon Math. homil 11. sup. ca. 5 if vessels sanctified to holy vses. &c.

Glin. That worke is receiued not as Chrisostomes, but some mans els, as you know, or thus I answere, it is not þ^e true body in proper and visible forme.

Here Mayster Gest  

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Edmund Gest would succeed John Jewel as bishop of Salisbury.

diputed.

THe bread is not chaunged before the consecration, ergo not after it neither.

Glin. I deny your argument M. Gest.

Gest. Christ gaue earthly bread, ergo there is no transubstantiation.

Glin. I deny your antecedent.  

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'Antecedent': first premise of an argument; in this case, that Christ gave his disciples natural bread at the Last Supper.

Gest. That that Christ tooke he blessed, that which he blessed he brake, what he brake he gaue, ergo he receiuing earthly bread, gaue the same bread.