MarginaliaAnno 1554. Aprill.bare towardes me, and howe glad they woulde be of an agreement.

But as I strayned to haue licence of thē in playn wordes to speak my minde, so me thought they graunted me it but vix or agrè. Well at the last I was content to take it for licenced, and so began to talke.

MarginaliaB. Ridley aunswering to Fecknam.To M. Fecknams argumentes of the manifold affirmatiō where no denial was, I answered: where is a multitude of affirmations in scripture, and where is one affirmation, all is one concerning the trueth of the matter:MarginaliaTruth in Scripture goeth not by number of affirmation where one is sufficient. for that any one of the Euangelists spake inspired by the holy ghost, was as true as that which is spoken of them all. It is as true that Iohn sayth of Christ: Ego sum ostium ouium. i. I am the dore of the sheepe, as if all had sayde it. For it is not in scripture as in witnes of men where the number is credited more then one, because it is vncertayne of whose spirit he doth speake. And where M. Fecknam spake of so many, affirming without any negation. &c. Syr sayd I, all they do affirme the thing which they ment. MarginaliaWords in Scripture must be taken with theyr meaning.Now if ye take theyr wordes to leaue theyr meaning then do they affirme what ye take, but not what they ment.  

  Syr sayde I, if in talke with you, I should so vtter my minde in words, that ye by the same do, and may playnely perceiue my meaning & could (if ye wold be captious) cauil at my words & writh them to an other sense, I would thinke ye were no gentle companion to talke with, except ye would take my words as ye did perceiue that I did meane.

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Mary, quoth M. Secretary, we should els do you plain iniury and wrong.

M. Fecknam perceiuing whereunto my talke went, why (quoth he) what circumstaunces can ye shew me that should moue to thinke of any other sense, then as the wordes playnely say: Hoc est corpus meum, quod pro vobis tradetur. i. This is my body which shall be betrayed for you?

MarginaliaHoc est corpus meū expoūded.Syr sayd I, euen the next sentence that foloweth: vix. Hoc facite in meam commemorationem. i. Do this in my remembraunce. MarginaliaReasons why these wordes ought to be takē not literally.And also by what reason, ye say the bread is turned into Christes carnall body: By the same I may say, that is turned into his misticall body. For as that sayth of it: Hoc est corpus quod pro vobis tradetur: so Paule which spake by Christes spirit sayth: Vnus panis & vnum corpus multi sumus omnes, qui de vno pane participamus. i. We being many are all but one bread and one body, in as much as we are partakers of one bread.

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Here he calleth one bread, one loafe, sayd Mayster Seretary.

Yea sayd I, one loafe, one bread, all is one with me.

But what saye ye quoth maister Secretary, of the Vniuersalitye, antiquitye, and vnity, that M. Fecknam dyd speake of?

I ensure you sayd I, I thinke them matters weighty and to be considered well. MarginaliaVnitye with verity to be allowed.As for vnity, the truth is, before God, I doe beleue it and embrace it, so it be with verity, & ioyned to our head Christ, and such one as Paule, speaketh of saying: Vna fides, vnus Deus, vnum Baptisma. i. On fayth, one God, one Baptisme. MarginaliaAntiquitie.And for antiquity I am also persuaded to be true that Iræneus sayth: Quod primum verum. i. That is first is true. In our Religion Christes fayth was first truely taught by Christ himselfe, by his Apostles and by manye good men that from the beginning did succeede next vnto them: and for this controuersy of the Sacramēt I am perswaded, that those olde writers which wrote before the controuersye and the vsurping of the sea of Rome do all agree, if they be well vnderstanded in this truth.

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I am glad to heare, sayd Maister Secretary, that ye do so well esteme the Doctors of the church.

MarginaliaVniuersalitye hath a double vnderstanding.Now as for vniuersality, it may haue 2.meanings: one to vnderstand that to be vniuersall which from the beginning in all ages hath bene alowed, another, to vnderstand vniuersalitye for the multitude of our age or of anye other singuler age.

No, no, sayth maister Secretary, these 3. doe alwayes agree, and where there is one, there is all the rest, and here he and I chaunged many wordes. And finally, to be shorte in this matter we did not agree.

There was none quoth mayster Fecknam, before Berengarius, Wickliffe, and Hus, and now in our dayes Carolostadius, Oecolampadius. And Carolostadius sayth, Christ poynteth to his owne body and not to the Sacrament, and sayde: Hoc est Corpus meum. MarginaliaMelancton ad Myconium.And Melancton writeth to one Micronius (Miconius sayde I) these or like wordes: Nullam satis grauem rationem inuenire possum, propter quam a fide maiorum in hac materia dissentiam. i. I can finde no grounded reason to cause me to dissent from the beliefe of our foreelders.  

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MarginaliaThe doctrine of the Sacrament not new.Thus when hee had spoken at length, with manye other wordes mo: Sir sayd I, it is certain that other before these haue written of this matter. Not by the way onelye,

and obiter, as doth for the most all the olde writers, but euen ex professo, and theyr whole bookes intreat of it alone, as Bertram.  

Bertram said the Secretary, what man was he? & whō was he,  

  and how do ye know? &c. with many questions.

Syr quoth I, I haue read his booke: he proponeth the same which is now in controuersy, and aunswereth so dyrectly that no man may doubt but that he affirmeth, that þ^e substance of bread remaineth still in the Sacrament, and he wrote vnto Carolus Magnus.

Mary (quoth he) marke for there is a matter. He wrote quoth he, ad Henricum, and not ad Carolum, for no Authour maketh any such mention of Bertramus.

Yes quoth I, Trithemius in Catalogo illustrium scriptorū,  

speaketh of him. Trithemius was but of late time:   but he speketh quoth I of them that were of antiquitye. Here, after much talke of Bertram, what authors haue ye quoth M. Secretry to make of the sacrament a figure?

Marginalia
Doctours that make the Sacrament but a figure.
Tertullianus. Gelasius Origine.Syr quoth I, ye knowe (I thinke) that Tertullian  

in playne wordes speaketh thus: Hoc est corpus, id est, figura Corporis mei. i. This is my bodye, that is to say, a figure of my body. And Gelasius   sayth playnly that Substantia panis manet. i. The substaunce of bread remayneth. And Origene   sayth likewise, Quod sanctificatur secundum materiam, ingreditur stomachum & vadit in secessum. i. That which is sanctified, as touching the matter or substance, passeth away into the draught. This when I had englished, M. Secretarye sayd to me, you know very well as any man. &c. and here, if I woulde, I might haue bene set in a foolishe Paradise of his commendation of my learning, and quòd essem vir multæ Lectionis. i. A manne of much readyng.   But thys I woulde not take at his hand. He set me not vp so high, but I brought my selfe as low againe: and here was much adoe.

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As for Melancton (quoth I) whō M. Fecknam spake of, I maruell that ye will alledge him, for we are more nye an agrement here in England, then the opinion of Melā cton to you: for in this poynt we all agree here, that there is in the sacrament but one materiall substance: & Melanctō as I weene, sayth there are two.

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Ye say trueth quoth M. Secretary: Melancthons opinion is so. But I pray you, ye haue read that the sacramēt was in olde time so reuerenced, that many were then forbidden to be present at the ministraton thereof. Catecumeni (quoth he) and many moe.

MarginaliaCatechumeni and others wēt out at the ministratiō.Truth sir (quoth I) there were called some Audientes, some Pœnitentes, some Catechumeni, and some Euergumeni, which were commaunded to depart.

Now (quoth he) then. And howe can ye then make but a figure or a signe of the Sacrament, as that booke whyche is set forth in my Lord of Canterburyes name,  

I wisse, ye can tell who made it, did not ye make it? & here was much murmuring of the rest, as though they would haue geuen me the glorye of the writing of the booke,MarginaliaThe booke of Catechisme.whiche yet there was sayd of some there, to conteyne most haynous heresy that euer was.

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Mayster Secretary (quoth I) that booke was made of a great learned man, and him which is able to do the like a gain: as for me I ensure you (be not deceiued in me) I was neuer able to do or write any such like thing, he passeth me no lesse, then the learned mayster his yong scholer.

Now, here euery man would haue his saying, which I passe ouer, not much materiall for to tell. But sir quoth I, me thinkes it is not charitably done, to beare the people in hand that any man doth so lightly esteme the sacrament, as to make of it a figure. For that [but]  

maketh it a bare figure without any more profit, which that book doth often deny, as appeareth to the reader most playnely.

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Yes quoth he that they do.

Sir, no quoth I, of a truth: and as for me I ensure you I make no lesse of the sacrament then thus: I say whosoeuer receiueth the sacrament, he receiueth therewith eyther life or death.

No quoth M. Secretary, scripture sayth no so.

Sir quoth I, although not in the same soūd of words, yet it doth in the same sense, and S. Augustine sayth,  

in the sound of words also: for Paule sayth: The bread which we breake, is it not the partaking or felowship of the bodye of Christ? And S. Augustine, Manduca vitam, Bibe vitam, i. eate life, drinke life.

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Then sayd mayster Pope, what can ye make of it whē ye say, there is not the reall body of Christ? Which I doe beleue. &c. & I pray God I may neuer beleue other. How can it bring (as ye say) either life or death, when Christes body is not there?

MarginaliaThe Sacrament may bring lyfe without transubstantiation.Syr quoth I, when you heare Gods word truely preached, if ye do beleue it and abide in it, ye shal and do receiue life withal: and if ye do not beleue it, it doth bring vnto you